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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》
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從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念
2009/09/19 01:44 瀏覽485|回應39推薦4

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黑心食品㊣鴨湯歡迎加盟
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張爺

首先,那篇Mental Floss文章相當簡單,本不需要翻譯的,直接以美語的心去閱讀就夠了。這一陣子的「爭議」,其實是個non-controversy (問答題:這個字要怎麼翻譯?)。

原作者是美國人,他遠在天邊,不是近在眼前,用美語寫了一篇文章。我們不認識這位美國人,未曾與他有過面對面的交談,而且從頭到尾只有這一篇文章,沒有原作者其他文章可資參照。那麼我們應該以什麼方式去詮釋他所寫的文章才是合理?

先說一說不合理的翻譯觀念。

一、中英字典基本教義派法

用中英字典去解釋文章中特定的字或詞,忽略了文章的脈絡,而且專挑可能的或自己認定是「負面」字眼去判斷全文,是見樹不見林的作法。Gail等因此而出現了不少錯誤,而且錯誤的地方不只是unlikely的誤譯,也不只限於緊抓住keep dreaming不放的解釋。

過於偏重特定的字或詞,其實是長遠以來台灣學生學習英文閱讀一個不太好的習慣。在辦公室,我經常看到大學畢業沒多少年的年輕同仁,為了閱讀一篇英文文章而拼命查字典,而且用的是中英字典,還不是英英字典,這不是增進英文閱讀能力的適當方法,反而有害。

「This is the story of five unlikely leaders-a handful of women and men who inherited giant crises and had the courage to make difficult and unpopular decisions.

這是五位成功無望的領袖的故事--是繼承了巨大危機的男男女女裡的一小撮人,並且有勇氣做成困難且不得人心的決定。」

這句英文原文是全文的topic sentence它在英文寫作的功能是點出全文的主旨,不能有容易令讀者產生閱讀混淆的說法,而事實上原英句本就沒有問題

很不幸,Gail的翻譯卻將之改成意義難以前後連接的中文句子,而且還發生對英文文法理解上的錯誤,也沒有任何代表前後意義不同的連接詞連接。

這種翻法實在是很牽強,在美語中,unlikely leaders通常是正面的意義,從該句下文來看,這種領袖有勇氣做出困難與不受歡迎的決定,非大家之前一般預期。另外,有勇氣做出困難與不受歡迎的決定,其實是讚美,而捨棄通用的翻譯原則,卻故意翻成不得人心,也非翻譯之道。這句中文不只是unlikely這個字翻譯有誤而已,還有關係形容詞之前「繼承了巨大危機的男男女女裡的一小撮人」的翻法也有問題,對英文文法的理解明顯不足。

從「非凡的領袖」轉變成「成功無望的領袖」,如此一改,與緊接著unlikely leaders的後文正面語調意義難以連接,這是很不恰當的翻法。在此之前,翻譯成「非凡」也不正確,因為太過。這不是「我」決定要改還是不改,也不是其後以長篇大論去「協助」讀者「解讀」,就可以這樣過關的。

如果這就是所謂原作者的本意,我只能說原作者發瘋了,連topic sentence都不會寫了。

二、靈媒讀心術法

另外一種作法也不恰當,那就是讀心術式的解讀方法,彷彿說話者可以透視原作者的內在動機與心靈結構,但問題是,我們又不是靈媒,這裏也沒有任何一個人親身認識原作者,而且從頭到尾只有這一篇文章,沒有原作者其他文章可資參照,讀心術式的作法是很不妥當的。例如,將everything (anything) is possible 解釋成是原作者模糊的手法,以示客套。但我們怎麼知道他是如此?甚至乾脆順勢將之翻譯成「凡事都不無可能」,規避了「凡事都有可能」的簡潔優點。Anything is possible這幾個字在英文上沒有模糊之處,何以要刻意弄成不無可能的模糊用意?難道這就是原作者的「本意」?如何得知?

其後,又為了勉強解釋anything is possible是模糊用法,繼而將but的用法輕描淡寫,解釋為趣味性或只是轉折性用法,忽略but做為連接詞使前後意義不同或至少不相容的用法,但我們又怎麼知道原作者喜歡以but 這個字表示趣味或只是轉折的用法?我們是靈媒?套句英文,這一類靈媒讀心術式的「解釋」可以說是It leads no where。

合理的方法,是根據基本的英文閱讀與英翻中原則,配合應該有的文法意義,對特定字詞的前後文去合理且合邏輯地判斷原作者的意思,尤其是沒有在美國有長期居住的經驗,不太清楚許多當地約定俗成的用法,更要避免以自我偏好,加上過多的想像力,再以字典當擋箭牌硬擋,還出現長篇大論的自我解讀,這些都不會增進英文的閱讀能力的。
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最新網誌文章:「麥芽糖這個人

本文於 2009/09/19 03:22 修改第 8 次

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》65~69
2009/09/21 00:35 推薦1


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65~69.

從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念
2009/09/19 01:44 瀏覽950|回應69推薦4

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指鹿為馬?趙高?
修改刪除 2009/09/21 00:30 推薦0


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To quote~~~

至於在華人世界有一個「指鹿為馬」的成語典故可以顛覆這個常態。尤其用在鬥爭上。

--------------------------------------------------------------------

以下是趙高在手足欄活動的鑑定文件~~~

憑著無知罵人是世間最大的勇敢~~~ ^_____^  
2009/09/17 02:33

"老羅所推崇的鴨湯譯法更是滑天下之大稽"
"老羅和鴨湯堅持將"unlikely leaders"翻譯為「意料之外」和「大爆冷門」的領袖,這才是指鹿為馬,標準趙高作風。"
-----> 這個"推崇"是需要證明的,因為有人用這個措辭來嘲笑人。這個"老羅和鴨湯堅持將"unlikely leaders"翻譯為「意料之外」和「大爆冷門」的領袖"也是需要證明的,因為有人用這個陳述來道德羞辱他人。但是古今中外沒有人有能力提出像樣的證明,除了秦檜、趙高、以及中古西班牙的宗教裁判官。^+++++^

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多謝啦
    回應給: Gail(GAIL) 2009/09/20 23:58 推薦0


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這個SCF我目前是不想理他。多謝你的用心與指引。

至於與Alex的爭端始自於對馬英九兼任黨主席這個議題,外加當時有品教育提出後對於其違背選前承諾而兼任黨主席的作為是種負面的作法提出質疑。


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牛五還賣不賣刀?
修改刪除 2009/09/20 23:55 推薦1


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卻說牛五那日在東京街頭碰上楊志,牛五賣一把熬鍊了三日現打的殺雞刀,要價三千貫,這楊志走來,說這刀止值三文,牛五發起狂來,說你也打一把殺雞刀來與我看看,楊志說我殺老虎也止是空手,何須打一把殺雞刀來與你看,牛五止是不依,楊志不開口,自辦事去了,過了三個月,牛五還在東京街頭叫賣那把殺雞刀,還是三千貫一文不少,楊志止是冷笑,牛五扯著嗓子大叫,說三個月了你還打不來一把殺雞刀,你算什麼玩藝兒?~~~欲知後事如何,請看下回分解~~~

--------------------------------------------------------------------

請您,「忠實翻譯」那雜誌內文來給諸位看看--在長達三星期後。

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各位好戰的笨蛋們請自便!
2009/09/20 23:47 推薦0


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「客觀」辯論,因為對手其中之一,從一開始就技巧地「主觀」帶入,欲拖對手進入骯髒的泥巴戰爭,我已經不耐煩。

我就重貼底下這一帖,各位好戰的笨蛋們請自便!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

你今日與他人政治立場不同,辯論事實,在事實辯論裡當然穿插著人心,更何況政治。

也因此,自己比對手要更加更加反省--哪些是自己立場,自己願意選擇的「偏見」,哪些是--即便連他人都願意替自己背書的客觀事實--你可以兩者都陳述,也可以隱藏自我立場努力地傳達自己認為的客觀,但千萬千萬千萬不要忘了--風度。

因為你的對手,也有他自己的「客觀」--基於他自己的邏輯與經驗,以及「主觀」--自己的愛好憎惡。

當辯論雙方,事實辯論都以充足時,實在不需多說什麼,旁人自會判斷,此時若是自己輸,下台一鞠躬;此時若是自己贏,也切勿繼續挖苦嘲諷對手,包括自己的友人同伴。

但若在辯論之中,對手開始將他自己的「主觀」技巧性地帶入「客觀」,甚至加之以人身攻擊,意欲以此追回原先他失去的分數,這時,自己,並非也跟著有樣學樣,也以自己「主觀」帶入「客觀」,這樣反而中了對手的詭計,原本自己好不容易得來的那幾分,因為自己那一兩句的辱罵而全喪失掉。

而後續對手還可因此偷渡回這個「已經不存在客觀」的「看似客觀」的辯論場上,而,自己,則被迫在懊惱中持續與對手所構築出的主觀與客觀辛苦地奮戰………

若自己,反過來說,在「客觀」上輸了,而刻意模糊「主觀」與「客觀」,以卑鄙手法打擊對手,那麼就算成功將對手拖入泥水好了,自己所喪失的--為人的最根本,則是比對手輸得還要大--而他人並非看不見。

自己看到對手模糊了「主觀」與「客觀」時,最好方法是揭露對手哪些是「主觀」哪些是「客觀」,而自己的「主觀」與「客觀」不妨也揭露,讓世人看到所有的公正。

在清楚無誤的情況下,一場事實辯論,最後必然釐清事實,同時也帶給自己成長,糾正自己的偏見。 
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我不會再勸你了
    回應給: shouminc(shouminc) 2009/09/20 23:43 推薦0


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讓我對你說句重話吧!

SCF在利用你和Alex的戰爭,那樣明顯你還看不出來!?

我要勸和,你繼續主戰,那你是要被SCF打趴是不是!?

我不會再勸你了。
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神佛院二牛(B版)
修改刪除 2009/09/20 23:31 推薦0

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》59~64
2009/09/21 00:23 推薦1


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59~64.

神佛院二牛(B版)
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老師費盡心力對牛三說:『100開平方根是10,不是9。』

牛三說:『老師你太瑣碎了。我的洋博士朋友鼓勵我,說我雖然笨,只要努力,還是可以在社會上活下來。我頂回去,我說,只要我不失敗,我就會成功。他聽了一愣,聳聳肩膀走開了。老師你真廢!洋博士都打不過我,被我一招解決,老師你行嗎?!』

牛三回家把這事告訴牛五,牛五馬上給牛三拍手。

-------------------------------------------------------

牛五跟老師強辯,說老師一直裝呆,一直假裝沒看到洋人在罵小英。牛五不停地要老師注意洋人弄出來的負片效果,老師衹好跟牛五說那個負片效果什麼的看起來沒有什麼特別的意思。

牛三經過老師和牛五身邊,看到牛五吃癟了,馬上指責老師說:『老師你自比為小英,你自爽,你好不要臉喔!』

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東西是死的,人是活的
    回應給: Gail(GAIL) 2009/09/20 23:26 推薦0


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一件事實上的東西是黃色的,偏有人說是藍的。在正常狀況下會去質疑那說藍的人。

至於在華人世界有一個「指鹿為馬」的成語典故可以顛覆這個常態。尤其用在鬥爭上。

也就因為如此,昔日只要有權的一方幹起這種事來往往就形成冤枉的迫害事件。在網路上用這種手法,就會形成無休止的口水戰。更因為網路上有很多不知情的第三者,往往一方的發動而另一方不隨之反制,就可能讓不反制的一方名聲落敗!而這在網路論壇上是常見的。


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You will have to throw your hands up in the air at some point and walk away.
    回應給: SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 2009/09/20 20:42 推薦1


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I have no idea what he was talking about either.  I can tell you this though.  Anyone who has had any dealings with people like that will have to throw their hands up in the air and walk away at some point, just as that British economist did.

These people are hopeless.  As Schiller once said, against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.  You and I are mere mortals.  What can you do.  But as long as you can keep coming up with things like
牛五軼事, it is worth it. 

Whatever you do, just don't get upset over this sorts of things.  As they say, life is a tragedy for people who feel, but comedy for people who think.  It is a comedy.

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牛五軼事
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卻說牛五那日在東京街頭碰上楊志,牛五賣一把熬鍊了三日現打的殺雞刀,要價三千貫,這楊志走來,說這刀止值三文,牛五發起狂來,說你也打一把殺雞刀來與我看看,楊志說我殺老虎也止是空手,何須打一把殺雞刀來與你看,牛五止是不依,楊志不開口,自辦事去了,過了三個月,牛五還在東京街頭叫賣那把殺雞刀,還是三千貫一文不少,楊志止是冷笑,牛五扯著嗓子大叫,說三個月了你還打不來一把殺雞刀,你算什麼玩藝兒?~~~欲知後事如何,請看下回分解~~~

.

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歡迎你討救兵
    回應給: SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 2009/09/20 16:56 推薦0


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可惜他泥菩薩過江自身難保
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主覡啊,這X頭小傢伙在說些什麼?我看不懂,教教我罷~~~
修改刪除     回應給: Lohengrin(lohengrin) 2009/09/20 16:53 推薦0


SCFtw2
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尋王之盟「凡事都有可能」~~碰軟釘子篇 Gail2009/09/20 16:40:35

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SCF譏笑我,將everything is possible譯成「凡事都不無可能」是項誤譯。這種瑣碎的批評是缺乏力量的~~看看下面一則真實故事↓

我年輕時候,有個做直銷的上線積極鼓動我。他用了個激將法:「相不相信?!這是可能的!」上線激勵我這名不動如山的下線要向某某鑽石級上線看齊。

我的回答是:「嗯~~我相信這是可能的 ,凡事都有可能(everything is possible),只要不矛盾都有可能(It is possible if (and only if) there's no contradiction)」

這句「凡事都有可能」說了什麼沒有?沒有的,我的上線恰好是英國經濟學博士,沒讀過邏輯也擁有有起碼的邏輯直覺,他愣了一下,然後聳聳肩兩手一攤知道「碰了一鼻子灰」.....

這種讓人碰軟釘子的logical possibility是在同意什麼嗎?

.

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》55~58
2009/09/21 00:14 推薦0


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55~58.

^++++^
    回應給: SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 2009/09/20 16:04 推薦0


Gail
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請您,「忠實翻譯」那雜誌內文來給諸位看看--在長達三星期後。
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忠實譯出每一句是整篇譯文忠實可靠的基礎 — 以『everything is possible』為例
修改刪除 2009/09/20 16:02 推薦0


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.

把『everything is possible』譯成『凡事都不無可能』乃是譯者判定了原作者說這句話時的心態是保守的、或防衛的、或退縮的、或不積極的。這樣的翻譯沒有必要。這樣的翻譯心態是不可取的。有經驗的、夠格的譯者不會這樣譯。

【不無可能】是雙重否定,在邏輯上等於肯定,但『凡事都有可能』與『凡事都不無可能』這兩句話語氣(語調/口氣/聲口)非常不同。這個語氣不同在漢語使用者群體裡是公認的,也就是屬於【人人得見而且必須承認為真】的情況。這個情況不因語境而異,不因作者而異,也不因讀者而異,所以譯者不被允許有個人選擇,所以作者怎麼措辭譯者就必須那麼譯,所以一個忠實可靠的譯者衹能把『everything is possible』譯成口氣為肯定表述的『凡事都有可能/什麼事都有可能』。

『this is possible』=『這是可能的』。『this is not impossible』=『這不是不可能』。這兩種措辭的使用情境經常不同。一個情緒熱烈的研究部門主管在記者會上介紹本公司的新目標,在描繪了成品藍圖之後他會說:『This is possible. Because ……』。一個災害成因調查委員會在記者會上公佈調查結論,認定了災害的主要成因,有記者提出別的可能的主要禍源,主任委員很可能會這樣回話:『This is not impossible. But ……』。不忠實翻譯是不行的。不同的心態會有不同的措辭,在一個語言表達能力沒有問題的說話者,不同的措辭的真實涵義通常就在這個措辭本身,說話者不必多說,聆聽者也不必外求。【忠實翻譯】是翻譯守則第一條。

『everything is possible』的雙重否定措辭是『nothing is impossible』,直譯是『沒有什麼是不可能的』。這兩個英語句子在邏輯上相等,但是語氣有差別,出現的情境也不完全相同。這兩個英語句子都可以傳達樂觀的心態,都可以用在鼓舞別人或肯定自我的場合,但雙重否定措辭的語氣更強,更雄壯威武,比方在這兩個句子(中譯) --『人定勝天,沒有什麼是不可能的。』、『有志者事竟成,沒有什麼是不可能的。』。但這兩個英語句子在真實的語境中可以針鋒相對,會場上力排眾議強烈主張某個很難達成的方案的主席攘臂高呼:『Everything is possible!』,臺下可能傳出一句冷冷的『Sure! Nothing is impossible.』,然後反對派大笑鬨堂。不忠實翻譯是不行的。

語言不同,【雙重否定措辭】的習慣可能不同。英語裡有something/anything/everything/nothing這樣的不定代詞,用法非常複雜,帶有everything的詞語的否定措辭有兩種情況(全面否定和部份否定),雙重否定措辭就必須把everything改成nothing。『everything is possible』的雙重否定措辭衹能是『nothing is impossible』,翻譯出來衹能是『沒有什麼是不可能的』,譯者把『everything is possible』譯成『凡事都不無可能』乃是譯者自己搞出一種“漢化的”雙重否定措辭,這個漢語措辭在英語裡沒有對當措辭(equivalent phrasing/wording),沒法還原。這麼簡單直截人人都懂的英語措辭搞到譯文沒法還原,這是很可笑的誤譯。

忠實譯出每一句是整篇譯文忠實可靠的基礎。

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引用者清單(1)
2009/09/20 16:07【尋王之盟】轉SCF〈忠實譯出每一句是整篇譯文忠實可靠的基礎 — 以『everything is possible』為例 〉刪除
廁所文學大師自命孔子 自命神龍
2009/09/20 16:00 推薦0


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這種「自命」是他從來不覺得有必要論證的
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我指控SCF「依據情勢刻意模糊主觀與客觀,為了替他本人服務」,需不需論證!?
    回應給: SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 2009/09/20 15:59 推薦0


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Alex指控shouminc為綠人,信誓旦旦,同樣也需論證。
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請證論給我看
修改刪除     回應給: shouminc(shouminc) 2009/09/20 15:52 推薦1

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》48~54
2009/09/21 00:10 推薦0


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48~54.

請證論給我看
修改刪除     回應給: shouminc(shouminc) 2009/09/20 15:52 推薦1


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文章推薦人 (1)

SCFtw2

To quote~~~

這個開欄的Alex若不是馬網軍,就不會跟我為了「馬英九違諾兼任黨主席」的議題上纏鬥不休,進而演變「人身攻擊」啦!

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.

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這尚且還是不會說話的物品呢!
    回應給: shouminc(shouminc) 2009/09/20 13:58 推薦0


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一件黃色物品某某人說它是藍色的,難道可以改變它真的成為藍色?旁人會質疑那件物品,還是那個聲稱它藍色的人?這尚且還是不會說話的物品呢!

本文於 2009/09/20 13:59 修改第 1 次
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未必如此
    回應給: Gail(GAIL) 2009/09/20 13:55 推薦0


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有時傳達出自己的意念,就會有人跑來回應或辯論。這本是「無可厚非」的事。

一旦有一方因理曲搞起「人身攻擊」,或做不實的栽贓抹黑,問題就來了。

網誌或部落格的對象是公眾而不僅僅是自己寫爽的,還有著自己品牌之建立的功能。當謂方做抹黑動作時,就是要打擊其抹黑對象的形象與品牌,若不予理會,往往就讓對手達成目的,也就讓網路風氣日益沉淪了!

至於這一篇關於馬的文章,倒有點想說是軟腳馬幾乎成了公眾對馬的標籤時,對於想造就成勇腳馬的馬集團成員而言是一個重在背上的刺,因此,這一篇文章的出現,才會被吹捧一番。當然對於反對者或對其不利的聲音,自然會要去之而後快了。



本文於 2009/09/20 14:09 修改第 1 次
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主觀與客觀
    回應給: shouminc(shouminc) 2009/09/20 13:46 推薦2


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文章推薦人 (2)

Chocola
shouminc

你今日與他人政治立場不同,辯論事實,在事實辯論裡當然穿插著人心,更何況政治。

也因此,自己比對手要更加更加反省--哪些是自己立場,自己願意選擇的「偏見」,哪些是--即便連他人都願意替自己背書的客觀事實--你可以兩者都陳述,也可以隱藏自我立場努力地傳達自己認為的客觀,但千萬千萬千萬不要忘了--風度。

因為你的對手,也有他自己的「客觀」--基於他自己的邏輯與經驗,以及「主觀」--自己的愛好憎惡。

當辯論雙方,事實辯論都以充足時,實在不需多說什麼,旁人自會判斷,此時若是自己輸,下台一鞠躬;此時若是自己贏,也切勿繼續挖苦嘲諷對手,包括自己的友人同伴。

但若在辯論之中,對手開始將他自己的「主觀」技巧性地帶入「客觀」,甚至加之以人身攻擊,意欲以此追回原先他失去的分數,這時,自己,並非也跟著有樣學樣,也以自己「主觀」帶入「客觀」,這樣反而中了對手的詭計,原本自己好不容易得來的那幾分,因為自己那一兩句的辱罵而全喪失掉。

而後續對手還可因此偷渡回這個「已經不存在客觀」的「看似客觀」的辯論場上,而,自己,則被迫在懊惱中持續與對手所構築出的主觀與客觀辛苦地奮戰………

若自己,反過來說,在「客觀」上輸了,而刻意模糊「主觀」與「客觀」,以卑鄙手法打擊對手,那麼就算成功將對手拖入泥水好了,自己所喪失的--為人的最根本,則是比對手輸得還要大--而他人並非看不見。

自己看到對手模糊了「主觀」與「客觀」時,最好方法是揭露對手哪些是「主觀」哪些是「客觀」,而自己的「主觀」與「客觀」不妨也揭露,讓世人看到所有的公正。

在清楚無誤的情況下,一場事實辯論,最後必然釐清事實,同時也帶給自己成長,糾正自己的偏見。
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向天吐痰,痰只是回到自己臉上
    回應給: shouminc(shouminc) 2009/09/20 13:28 推薦0


Gail
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人要大肚、大量、大器。

自己遭受歪曲或者辱罵,不要太當回事。

向天吐痰,痰只是回到自己臉上。

不用太去在意。

真正要寫的,傳達了,不怕沒人知道。
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開欄者的作為
    回應給: Gail(GAIL) 2009/09/20 13:17 推薦0


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這個開欄的Alex若不是馬網軍,就不會跟我為了「馬英九違諾兼任黨主席」的議題上纏鬥不休,進而演變「人身攻擊」啦!

.

「新聞」和「搞笑」
2009/09/20 12:09 推薦0


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心理牙線的大致上是走「新聞」和「搞笑」雙路線
先前故意問羅老師,你認為的幽默在哪裡?羅老師板請臉孔來就雜誌標題講解了一大堆,然而那是大家都已經知道的事~~~他就是不敢承認雜誌的「內容」也在搞笑~~那根本不是本正正經經的政經時勢分析
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厚臉皮、唾面自乾也該有個限度。
2009/09/20 11:42 推薦0

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》41~47
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41~47.

厚臉皮、唾面自乾也該有個限度。
2009/09/20 11:42 推薦0


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真的!拜託!不要那麼不要臉!至今還在臉上貼金!

厚臉皮、唾面自乾也該有個限度。

我並非生氣於自己的任何文字遭受批評或攻擊,而是對於這些如今還硬要說那本雜誌「完全是稱讚,對馬XX毫無諷刺」的這些「弄臣們」感到不可思議!!
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Plebiscite under dictatorship.
    回應給: Alex(Alex) 2009/09/20 11:37 推薦0


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I see.  Thank you for the reference.  From this article, I would say that the plebiscite was voted on with secret ballots, foreign journalists were allowed to observe and there was no wide spread cheating.

However it was a plebiscite under dictatorship.  Hitler already had dictatorial power for 4 years by the Enabling Act of 1933 which meant, as you have already pointed out, Germany was a one party state.  The state controlled the propaganda machine and organized oppositions were banned.  The population was bombarded with Nazi propaganda 24 hours a day with no one there to point out the opposing arguments.  A friend of mine who lived through the cultural revolution once commented that Mao could probably win a genuine plebiscite by a very high margin any time in the late 60s.

---------------

By the way, speaking of economy, what was Nazi's economic policy?  The Nazi society was highly organized around the government and it once had a "four year plan" typical of a planned economy and ran huge public work projects.  Did a (relatively) free market even exist?  If not, what was the difference between Nazism and communism if any?


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在一本鐵錚錚被證實諷刺為主調的雜誌裡,反對者說「unlikely leader」在此是「讚美」,那真是對於反對者自己最大的反諷!
2009/09/20 11:23 推薦0


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城市討論區: 這是本搞笑雜誌.
Lohengrin   政治社會/公共議題   青春鐵馬向前行   2009/09/07 13:30:19

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http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2009/new/sep/7/today-t1.htm

2009-9-7
美嘲諷雜誌:馬向中國求愛 有膽識

「心理牙線」 報導類似金酸莓

「心理牙線」(mental_floss)名稱的由來,是取「Dental floss」(牙線)的諧音,為二○○一年創刊的雙月刊雜誌。該刊網頁在「關於我們」做自我介紹時強調,該刊是給聰明人讀的,但也不能太聰明,因看完之後還得想一下,才會知道好笑的地方在那裡。該雜誌另一項財源收入,是販售印有搞笑諷刺標語的T恤。根據維基百科資料,該雜誌發行量約八千份。

--------------------------------------------------------------

該雜誌對自己的定調:

http://www.mentalfloss.com/magazine/whatismentalfloss.php

For the record: mental_floss magazine is an intelligent read, but not too intelligent. We're the sort of intelligent that you hang out with for a while, enjoy our company, laugh a little, smile a lot and then we part ways. Great times. And you only realize how much you learned from us after a little while. Like a couple days later when you're impressing your friends with all these intriguing facts and things you picked up from us, and they ask you how you know so much, and you think back on that great afternoon you spent with us and you smile.

And then you lie and say you read a lot.

Feed your Right Brain:

People are always dropping names in the arts. Whether it's a Ming vase or a furry tea cup, a Kubrick film or a seminal James Joyce book, there are certain artists, movements and masterpieces that have completely changed our world. But the fact is, the reasons why aren't always so obvious. Our RIGHT BRAIN section eases readers into the humanities by making art and literature accessible without needing to dumb it down. Want vivid descriptions? Want lush explanations? Want to know what makes The Thinker so great, and why Jackson Pollock isn't just some overrated paint-thrower? It's all right here: mental_floss experts are here to spill why that classic is a classic, and they're happy to give you every juicy detail and naughty back-story while they're at it.

Nurture your Left Brain:

Remember that time you were at that cocktail party and Stephen Hawking sidled up to you, and all he wanted to talk about was string theory? Or what about the time those irritating Watson and Crick characters kept asking you your thoughts on the Human Genome Project, and you had to stand by the celery tray all night long? Well, that's exactly why we created the LEFT BRAIN section. From the mysteries of black holes to paradigm-shifting discoveries, to how to conduct a heart transplant in 8 (not so easy) steps, mental_floss takes the most fascinating ideas and theories around, and delivers them in plain old, easy-to-understand English. Keeping up with eggheads has never been so easy.

--------------------------------------------------------------

該雜誌的維基解釋:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_floss

mental_floss is a bi-monthly American magazine, launched in 2001[1] in Birmingham, Alabama, that presents facts and trivia in a humorous way. It includes columns by A.J. Jacobs and Ken Jennings.

The magazine frequently publishes books and sells T-shirts with humorous sayings, such as "There's no right way to eat a Rhesus". In addition, there is a licensed trivia board game much like Trivial Pursuit. Most recently, the magazine began the In a Box series with Law School in a Box and Med School in a Box.

The magazine also offers a popular blog site that include pieces from the magazine and Uncle John's Bathroom Reader. It also includes new internet memes, news articles and weekly link round ups.

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本文因「移回自己欄位」,已由 Gail(GAIL) 於 2009/09/20 11:06刪除。
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Damn!
    回應給: Lohengrin(lohengrin) 2009/09/20 02:53 推薦0


Damn M
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Damn M 是Damnatio memoriae 的縮寫

請勿做其他演繹

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關於納粹歷史的一些說明
    回應給: Lohengrin(lohengrin) 2009/09/20 01:20 推薦0


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稍微補充一下當年納粹下90%選票的內容,那次投票是個公投,決定是否應將總統與總理的權力合而為一,換句話說,德國人民是否同意希特勒可擁有更大與更多的權力。

以下是當年紐約時報的報導。至少在當年,觀察家認為那次投票沒有問題,投票的秘密性也獲得保障,連一些猶太區也出現贊成多於反對的結果。我想宣傳、甚至威嚇等等措施是有的,以影響投票方向,因為德國在1933年就成為一個政黨的國家(one-party state)。不過在此之前,納粹已經是德國第一大黨,即使排除不公正的因素與有名的國會大廈縱火案,納粹能拿到多數選票也是指日可待的事,主要原因還是整個大環境的影響。

Frederick T. Birchall, New York Times (19th August, 1934)

Eighty-nine and nine-tenths per cent of the German voters endorsed in yesterday's plebiscite Chancellor Hitler's assumption of greater power than has ever been possessed by any other ruler in modern times. Nearly 10 per cent indicated their disapproval. The result was expected.

The German people were asked to vote whether they approved the consolidation of the offices of President and Chancellor in a single Leader-Chancellor personified by Adolf Hitler. By every appeal known to skillful politicians and with every argument to the contrary suppressed, they were asked to make their approval unanimous.

Nevertheless 10 per cent of the voters have admittedly braved possible consequences by answering "No" or made their answers, ineffective by spoiling the simplest of ballots. There was a plain short question and two circles, one labeled "Yes" and the other "No," in one of which the voter had to make a cross. Yet there were nearly 1,000,000 spoiled ballots.

The results given out by the Propaganda Ministry early this morning show that out of a total vote of 43,438,378, cast by a possible voting population of more than 45,000,000, there were 38,279,514 who answered "Yes," 4,287,808 who answered "No" and there were 871,056 defective ballots. Thus there is an affirmative vote of almost 90 per cent of the valid votes and a negative vote of nearly 10 per cent exclusive of the spoiled ballots which may or may not have been deliberately rendered defective.

The endorsement gives Chancellor Hitler, who four years ago was not even a German citizen, dictatorial powers unequaled in any other country, and probably unequaled in history since the days of Genghis Khan. He has more power than Joseph Stalin in Russia, who has a party machine to reckon with; more power than Premier Mussolini of Italy who shares his prerogative with the titular ruler; more than any American President ever dreamed of.

No other ruler has so widespread power nor so obedient and compliant subordinates. The question that interests the outside world now is what Chancellor Hitler will do with such unprecedented authority.

In the Communist districts protest votes with Communist inscriptions were rare. In Western Berlin they were more frequent. In one district five ballots had the name "Thaelmann" written in. (Ernst Thaelmann is an imprisoned Communist leader.) One ballot contained this inscription, "Since nothing has happened to me so far I vote 'Yes.'" It was signed "Non-Aryan."

Interesting also are the following results: the hospital of the Jewish community in one district cast 168 "Yes" votes, 92 "Noes," and 46 ballots were invalid. The Jewish Home for Aged People in another district cast 94 "Yes" votes, four "Noes" and three invalid ballots. This vote is explainable, of course, by the fear of reprisals if the results from these Jewish institutions had been otherwise. It is paralleled by other results outside Berlin.

In all Bavaria Chancellor Hitler received the largest vote in his favor in the concentration camp at Dachau where 1,554 persons voted "Yes" and only eight "No" and there were only ten spoiled ballots.

Hamburg, which only two days ago gave Herr Hitler the most enthusiastic reception he had ever received anywhere, led the country in the opposition vote. The official figures were: Total vote cast, 840,000; "Yes," 651,000; "No," 168,000; invalidated ballots, 21,000.

The "No" vote, in other words was 20 per cent of the total vote. Counting the invalid ballots as negative in intent, the total opposition votes exceeded 22 per cent. The percentage of the electorate voting was 92.4.

Hamburg is the home city of Ernst Thaelmann and on his triumphant entry into the city on Friday, Herr Hitler made it a point to drive past Thaelmann's former home.

As far as observers could ascertain, the election everywhere was conducted with perfect propriety, and secrecy of the ballot was safe-guarded. The ballots were marked in regular election booths and placed in envelopes and these were put in the ballot boxes. After the voting had ended the ballot box was emptied on a large table and the vote was counted publicly in the regular manner. Appraising of individual votes seemed impossible.

One check on possible non-voters, however, was exercised by instructions that the voting authorizations issued to those who for one reason or another planned to be outside their regular voting district on election day must be returned unless used. The number of such authorizations issued for this election exceeded anything known before.

Throughout the day Storm Troopers stood before each polling place with banners calling on the voters to vote "Yes." Otherwise voters remained unmolested. Inside the polling places uniforms and even party emblems had been forbidden, but the execution of this order was lax. In some apparently doubtful districts brown uniforms dominated the scene as a warning to would-be opponents.
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Hmmmmm~~~
修改刪除 2009/09/20 00:46 推薦0


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.

"假設你扔一枚拾圓的硬幣 一定會出現"頭像""拾圓"的機會大約相等
我們可以把這個叫" Likely "
會同時出現" 頭像 " " 拾圓 "的機會 (譬如到廟裡擲出了站立的筊 )
非常非常低 我們可以把這個叫: "Unlikely""

------------------------------------------------------------

假設你扔一枚拾圓的硬幣 一定會出現"頭像""拾圓"的機會大約相等
我們可以把這個叫" equally probable "
會同時出現" 頭像 " " 拾圓 "的機會 (譬如到廟裡擲出了站立的筊 )
非常非常低 我們可以把這個叫: "highly improbable"

文中其他"怪異"的地方不少。思維有點怪,鬆散,而且不流暢,表達不準確,也沒有精采之處。不太值得評論。

.

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There is actually some dispute over Hitler's popularity in the Nazi era.
    回應給: Alex(Alex) 2009/09/19 23:57 推薦0

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》36~40
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36~40.

There is actually some dispute over Hitler's popularity in the Nazi era.
    回應給: Alex(Alex) 2009/09/19 23:57 推薦0


Lohengrin
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When Hitler was appointed Chancellor, Nazi was the largest party in the parliament, but it had less than 40% of the votes (I think).  The Nazis then invented a few "crisis", like Kristallnacht, and Hitler was then appointed a dictator for 4 years(?).  I am not sure if there were elections after that.  In any case, once the the Nazi totalitarian system was in place, election became meaningless even if there were any.  The "dear leader" in N. Korea probably routinely gets over 99% of the votes.

In a free and open society, I doubt anyone can get over 90%.

Any way, this is irrelevant, but perhaps more interesting.
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新起民主+工商業國家的聰明靈活機變的新任領袖帶領國家轉敗為勝。大旨如此。
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心理牙線雜誌惹出的心理禍
回應文章急公好義 (SCFtw2)
市民SCFtw22009/09/19
23:46
112434

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痌瘝在抱哀毀骨立
修改刪除     回應給: Lohengrin(lohengrin) 2009/09/19 23:38 推薦2


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文章推薦人 (2)

Lohengrin
Chocola

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http://140.111.34.46/chengyu/mandarin/fulu/dict/cyd/10/cyd10063.htm
教育部重編國語辭典修訂本
痌瘝在抱

對人民的疾苦感同身受。形容愛民殷切。二十年目睹之怪現狀˙第六十回:前回一個大善士,專誠到揚州去勸捐,做得那種痌瘝在抱、愁眉苦目的樣子。亦作恫瘝在抱、恫瘝在身。

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http://dict.idioms.moe.edu.tw/mandarin/fulu/dict/cyd/2/cyd02726.htm
教育部重編國語辭典修訂本
哀毀骨立

形容因居親喪過於悲傷哀痛,以致身形瘦損。南朝宋˙劉義慶˙世說新語˙德性:和嶠雖備禮,神氣不損,王戎雖不備禮,而哀毀骨立。臣以和嶠生孝,王戎死孝。清˙蔣士銓˙鳴機夜課圖記:母哀毀骨立,水漿不入口者七日,閭黨姻婭,一時咸以孝女稱,至今弗衰也。

.

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英語最基本的構成單元是句子
    回應給: Lohengrin(lohengrin) 2009/09/19 23:25 推薦1


Alex
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Chocola

歷史上有很多領導者能做出不受歡迎的決定,但卻是正確的政策。歷史上也有惡名昭彰的領導者做出很受歡迎的決定,但卻是極端錯誤的決定,希特勒當年推動的極右觀念使他贏得90%的選票,連那個爛扁都曾經有70%的民意支持度。

有勇氣做出困難且不受歡迎的決策來看,這是正面的,不是負面的。

英語最基本的構成單元是句子,中文最基本的構成單元是字,或許因為這個原因,台灣學生往往忽略整句與上下文,而喜歡在一個字上一直打轉。

我舉了王建民報導的例子,目的是用來說明靠字典翻譯是如何地不可靠,這是一個不能在一個字上打轉的範例,也是我過去一直強調的,要以上下文參照。
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Probability and likely or Unlikely
    回應給: Alex(Alex) 2009/09/19 23:16 推薦2


魚流感
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Gail
Chocola

這麼簡單的字義問題有必要搞成這麼複雜嗎?!
假設你扔一枚拾圓的硬幣 一定會出現"頭像""拾圓"的機會大約相等
我們可以把這個叫" Likely "
會同時出現" 頭像 " " 拾圓 "的機會 (譬如到廟裡擲出了站立的筊 )
非常非常低 我們可以把這個叫: "Unlikely"
這就好比機率與統計學裡的" 期望值 "兩者是相類似的
只是一個使用數字來表達 ( 雖然統計數字也會"說謊")
另外一個是用" 人人心中有把尺 "不準確的Rule of Thumb來表達
(被看好度 或 不被看好度)
這完全是可以不涉及道德價值的"好壞 "與"對錯" "正面反面" 等等問題
紐約洋基為什麼會覺得是撿到了一個" 超大的便宜 "而不是賠錢貨(例如傷兵)
不正是因為超出了洋基棒球統計預期的"被看好度 "
 棒球跟經濟學顯然離科學還遠的很
格林司潘不是最近才發現(後知後覺)自由經濟最大的缺陷 就是無法逃脫的人性缺陷
不過這是題外話
其實Mental_Floss本身就是帶有搞笑性質的消遣雜誌 本文作者也不是啥名儒大師
文章內容張冠李載 錯誤百出
例如智利的"Rainy-Day Fund"其實是智利財政部長Andres Velasco
提出並堅持執行的政策 完全歸功給智利女總統 就是作者的功課沒做好
不過應該可以讓讀者除了博君一笑之外
也會讓讀者自我感覺良好 覺得自己"閒嗑腦(牙)"後 好像又聰明了點
否則今年二月美俄衛星在西伯利亞上空的" Unlikely Collision "
豈不是也可以正面解讀為" 歲歲(碎碎)平安 碰碰胡 一條龍 外加大四喜 " ?!


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Yeah yeah.
    回應給: Damn M(transpen) 2009/09/19 23:10 推薦0

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》31~35
2009/09/20 00:19 推薦0


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31~35.

Yeah yeah.
    回應給: Damn M(transpen) 2009/09/19 23:10 推薦0


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I admit that I don't have anything better to do tonight.  Real work is too damn hard.
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Unpopular
2009/09/19 23:03 推薦0


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It is also in the context.  When it is combined with "courage" in this context, it is very positive as in:

"It takes courage to make unpopular decisions in a democracy." 

This statement is implicitly praising those who make these "unpopular decisions".  This can be translated as [在民主國家做出違背民意的決策是需要勇氣的].


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今晚該去哪喝呢?
    回應給: Gail(GAIL) 2009/09/19 23:02 推薦0


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>>現在頭很暈,不曉得這樣大量查證值不值得

完全不值得,因為你的方法論完全錯誤

用這種方式就算你找出所有unlikely leader 的八字,也完全沒有說明什麼,除了說明你很認真以外

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The closest approximation so far
2009/09/19 22:43 推薦0


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The closest approximation so far is still DuckSoup's [意料之外].  It is what it is. 

Alex was a bit too quick to jump to his conclusions, calling it positive.  He probably meant that it is positive in the context of this specific article.  He did the same with "Everything is possible" that SCF later corrected him.

I also agree with SCF that there are differences between "economic meltdown", "economic recession" and "economic depression".  They should be [經濟崩潰], [經濟衰退] and [經濟蕭條], respectively. 
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這五位unlikely leaders「得獎」原因是因為……
2009/09/19 22:32 推薦1


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Chocola

馬英九當選總統並非「意料之外」並非「黑馬」,以2008選舉時的情勢。

魯拉的出身當選巴西總統是黑馬。

那句「This is the story of five unlikely leaders」接著的是「a handful of women and men who inherited giant crises and had the courage to make difficult and unpopular decisions.」

「unpopular」是太過明顯的負面表述,但Alex說這句話其實是讚美。

「unlikely leader」在大部分場合裡是正面表述,但在一本已經鐵錚錚被證實「諷刺主調」的雜誌裡,加上「courage」 加上「unpopular」,Alex卻可通通解釋為正面表述。

今日下午我將旁證全寫完,在我網站,我尚且找到另一份不錯的全文翻譯,在鯨魚網站。

現在頭很暈,不曉得這樣大量查證值不值得。

https://city.udn.com/51771/3619849
http://www.hi-on.org.tw/bulletins.jsp?b_ID=93583

這五位unlikely leaders「得獎」原因是因為「had the courage to make difficult and unpopular decisions.」,並非出身,而是「勇氣」--明知困難與不受歡迎還做那樣決定的「勇氣」,呼應於封面的最有「Guts」………

.

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》26~30
2009/09/20 00:14 推薦0


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26~30.

希姆萊、希特勒、佛朗哥也曾被認為是「unlikely leader」………
2009/09/19 21:58 推薦0


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德國納粹黨衛軍頭子希姆萊、希特勒、佛朗哥也曾被認為是「unlikely leader」………

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-9938756_ITM

Himmler was an unlikely leader of men......

http://www.countingdown.com/features?feature_id=2745182

Hitler seems an unlikely leader with little in the way of social graces or refinement.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Franco/Gabrielle-Ashford-Hodges/e/9780312282851

The diminutive and contradictory Francisco Franco (1892-1975), who as a youth had seemed such an unlikely leader, rose to power with the military support of Hitler and Mussolini in an atmosphere of brutal civil war.

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Yanks Find Bronx Bargain in Unlikely Ace Wang
    回應給: Lohengrin(lohengrin) 2009/09/19 20:15 推薦1


Alex
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Lohengrin

其實我也知道對他們沒有用,但眼尖的人應該會發現,這是我在好幾個月前加入「尋王之盟」網市之後,第一篇開新欄的文章,目的在那裏?寫給其他人看的,否則我很懶得開新欄寫文章。

當然我很感慨,我不知道鴉湯的背景(但我讀過他在天下爽城寫的文章,他認真寫起來,筆路相當有條理),但我們其他三位至少都在美國有七、八年或以上的生活經驗,他們卻來告訴我們美語單字的意義以及如何閱讀英文文章?我看美語Give me a five,他們大概會根據字典翻譯成「給我一個五」,這是什麼東東?

轉貼一篇NBC於2006年的英文新聞報導如后,按照英漢字典基本教義派的譯法,原來王建民其實是「成功無望的王牌投手」,而且有名的美國國家廣播公司一開始就在諷刺王建民。

Yanks find Bronx bargain in unlikely ace Wang
Second-year sinkerballer provides bang for the buck in expensive rotation   
   
NBCSports.com
By Kieran O'Dwyer
updated 8:48 p.m. ET Oct. 1, 2006

Chien-Ming Wang, the unlikely ace of the Yankees' staff, has compiled an impressive collection of eye-opening starts this season.

There was a 3-hit gem against the Athletics in May during which he threw an economical 85 pitches in eight innings. There were his gutsy seven innings of 1-run ball against the Red Sox in June, just two weeks after the Sox battered him for seven runs in his worst outing of the season. And there was a 2-hit shutout of the Devil Rays in late July.

Perhaps the most telling start by Wang, a 26-year-old righthander, came in his next outing after blanking the D-Rays. Facing the Blue Jays in mid-90s heat at Yankee Stadium, Wang pitched eight shutout innings. But it was his efficient 1-2-3 seventh and eighth innings — all groundouts — after a half-hour in the dugout while his teammates put up a 6-run sixth that left the greatest impression.

"He just stays so focused," Yankees catcher Jorge Posada says. "He doesn't let things affect him. His throws his sinker about 85 percent of the time, and it's 95 miles per hour, heavy and has so much movement. He goes out there and keeps coming at you."
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

All while providing a bang for the buck rarely seen in the Bronx. His $353,175 salary is less than what teammates Mike Mussina and Randy Johnson make in a start. Wang, in his second big-league season after signing with the Yankees out of his native Taiwan in 2000, is more concerned with his pitching than his paycheck.

"I am having a lot of fun," says Wang, who speaks limited English. Thanks in part to Wang, the Yankees are having a fine time, too, on the way to their ninth consecutive American League East title. Wang ranks among AL leaders in wins (18) and ERA (3.57) and is No. 1 among starters in fewest homers allowed (12) and ground ball-to-fly ball ratio (2.92-to-1). If not for the brilliance of Twins lefthander Johan Santana, Wang would be a serious candidate for the AL Cy Young Award.
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最新網誌文章:「麥芽糖這個人

本文於 2009/09/19 20:21 修改第 4 次
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How to ask a question rudely and still get an answer?
    回應給: SCFtw2(SCFtw2) 2009/09/19 14:57 推薦0


Lohengrin
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Hey you SCF, what the heck does "痌瘝在抱哀毀骨立" mean?

I am reasonably sure that he will give me a good answer. 

See, people are reasonably thick-skinned over the internet.  It is nice to have social grace, but you don't need a lot of it here.  When you don't understand something, say you don't understand and ask.  Just don't tell people they are wrong or question their integrity or imply hidden political motives or hurl insults at them.


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池淺王八多
修改刪除     回應給: Chocola(jennyc122) 2009/09/19 14:52 推薦0


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.

{本欄}

引用文章怎樣~~~

.

廟小妖風大,池淺王八多。嬝嬝凌俠隱,婷婷落巫婆。

---------------------------------------------------------

正式向s神龞下一則通牒:
回應文章這隻神龞連應聲都不敢的一篇勸導性文字 (Chocola)
市民Chocola2009/09/19
06:08
1673

.

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〈神佛院中活寶多〉
修改刪除 2009/09/19 14:20 推薦0


SCFtw2
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.

神佛院中活寶多

吉訶德心夢難託

智者平生腦無惑

屁精出口日成坨

.

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They have no business in translation (2)
2009/09/19 12:52 推薦0

.

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》21~25
2009/09/20 00:12 推薦0


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21~25.

They have no business in translation (2)
2009/09/19 12:52 推薦0


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When I read Chinese, I think in Chinese and I comprehend.  I don't translate.  As SCF has pointed out directly and as I have implied before, being able to understand something and the ability to translate it are two very different things.  Those who understand both languages understand how difficult translation can be.  Take a simple phrase such as [unlikely leaders], I would search my brain in vain.  Nothing I know in Chinese feels right.  Of course, if you are the google translator, you have no problem, you just search your database/dictionary and, voila, you get your answer. 

Being able to carry conversations in Chinese and in English is a necessary, but not sufficient ability for a good translator.  Anyone who cannot do this has no business in translating between the two.

And they deride me for insisting on carrying this conversation in English.  Speaking of irony, this irony is just glaring, but they have invested too much emotion into their arguments to see it, but this is not new.

For the same reason, there is nothing Alex can do to change their minds.  Rational arguments stop working at this stage and with people like that.  I seriously doubt they would have changed their minds even if both Shakespeare and Dickens had suddenly come alive and told them so.


本文於 2009/09/19 14:27 修改第 3 次
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是啊。神佛院裡的活寶還真多。
    回應給: Alex(Alex) 2009/09/19 12:20 推薦1


黑心食品㊣鴨湯歡迎加盟
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文章推薦人 (1)

Lohengrin



我很想知道那兩隻活寶怎麼翻譯這本書的書名。

American on Purpose: The Improbable Adventures of an Unlikely Patriot

要是不能靠文法理解,敲進去就是阿媽爽書店的介紹。除了不能看內容有點小氣,至少可以看到出版社的介紹,還有讀者的書評。

In American on Purpose, Craig Ferguson delivers a moving and achingly funny memoir of living the American dream as he journeys from the mean streets of Glasgow, Scotland, to the comedic promised land of Hollywood. Along the way he stumbles through several attempts to make his mark—as a punk rock musician, a construction worker, a bouncer, and, tragically, a modern dancer.

To numb the pain of failure, Ferguson found comfort in drugs and alcohol, addictions that eventually led to an aborted suicide attempt. (He forgot to do it when someone offered him a glass of sherry.) But his story has a happy ending: in 1993, the washed-up Ferguson washed up in the United States. Finally sober, Ferguson landed a breakthrough part on the hit sitcom The Drew Carey Show, a success that eventually led to his role as the host of CBS's The Late Late Show. By far Ferguson's greatest triumph was his decision to become a U.S. citizen, a milestone he achieved in early 2008, just before his command performance for the president at the White House Correspondents' Association Dinner. In American on Purpose, Craig Ferguson talks a red, white, and blue streak about everything our Founding Fathers feared.

又是一本作者比標題大,作者的照片比什麼都大的非小說。但是至少這本書的副標題還言之有物,比起「大江大海」啊。。。。。。。。哈哈哈。。。。
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不看!不聽!下線。
2009/09/19 11:57 推薦1


Gail
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張爺

不論好壞評述,很夠了,該講的,我全講了,該寫的,該引證的,我都做了。

再發言下去我情緒會失控,所以,度週末去,不看!不聽!下線。
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誰能夠不「翻譯」?
2009/09/19 11:43 推薦0


張爺
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每個參與討論的人都預設了自己的「翻譯」,包括堅持使用英文到底的羅大師:當他用英文參與並糾正我們的英翻中及以中文為主的抬槓時,他勢必預設自己的中翻英哩!

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因為人人翻譯不同,多多少少會帶入自己看法與自己對於語詞的習慣
2009/09/19 11:12 推薦1


Gail
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張爺

Alex說:「合理的方法,是根據基本的英文閱讀與英翻中原則,配合應該有的文法意義,對特定字詞的前後文去合理且合邏輯地判斷原作者的意思,尤其是沒有在美國有長期居住的經驗,不太清楚許多當地約定俗成的用法,更要避免以自我偏好,加上過多的想像力,再以字典當擋箭牌硬擋,還出現長篇大論的自我解讀,這些都不會增進英文的閱讀能力的。」

--我沒住過美國,在翻譯上我承認我有自我解讀傾向,也因此,我敦促反對者全文翻譯更加重要--因為人人翻譯不同,多多少少會帶入自己看法與自己對於語詞的習慣。

而我更相信那些字典,因為他們集結了太多珍貴寶貴的語言經驗,即便是個高竿的翻譯者,我不相信他完全不需要字典,很可能還是大量需要。

.

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【聯網良幣】2009-9-19 ~【尋王之盟】《從Mental Floss的文章談兩種錯誤的翻譯觀念》15~20
2009/09/20 00:09 推薦0


SCFtw2
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15~20.

我舉了相當相當多「旁證」來證明這並非我單方面一相情願的解讀。
2009/09/19 11:08 推薦1


Gail
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張爺

Aelx說:「讀心術式的解讀方法,彷彿說話者可以透視原作者的內在動機與心靈結構,但問題是,我們又不是靈媒,這裏也沒有任何一個人親身認識原作者,而且從頭到尾只有這一篇文章,沒有原作者其他文章可資參照,讀心術式的作法是很不妥當的。」

--我舉了相當相當多「旁證」來證明這並非我單方面一相情願的解讀。

除非反對者能:一、做到全文翻譯。二、我舉的那些旁證能一一反駁。

旁證一:該雜誌的定性。

旁證二:該雜誌內誇張的語句用法。

Our new cover story on leaders is filled with the bold ideas and strange measuresthat politicians have taken to try and better their countries. But part of what makes the piece so fascinating is that all of these men and women have had unbelievable lives. Their tories sound so unlikely–from a hippie, folk-singing doctor who escaped torture to become president,to an East German scientist and daughter of a pastor who walked over the Berlin wall and was so moved that she felt compelled to go into politics. The stories are incredible, but my favorite is that of Lula da Silva. This is just an excerpt from one of the profiles in that story.

旁證三:該雜誌對於其他元首的定位與描述,而我舉出的是梅克爾與魯拉。

旁證四:該雜誌馬英九那文前後的文章,如魚流感網友所寫的那篇對於胡錦濤批判的文章。

旁證五:該雜誌在封面用的字眼「Wooing China」,不容被「非婚姻之外」的意思取代,理由在於內文裡其它的婚姻字眼。
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介紹詞嘛!要不然能怎樣寫!?
2009/09/19 10:59 推薦0


Gail
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Alex說:「如果這就是所謂原作者的本意,我只能說原作者發瘋了,連topic sentence都不會寫了。」

開頭「This is the story of five unlikely leaders-a handful of women and men who inherited giant crises and had the courage to make difficult and unpopular decisions.」

此句是放在內文介紹頁,而它接下來的全文是:

They aren't all saints,but their actions have changeed their nation.Moreover,these changes will affect your life.After all, if the current global economic meltdown has taught us anything.It's that we're all in together.If that we're going to climb out,we have to learn from those around us and build on their accomplishments.

也就是說,這「只是介紹」,「只是普通的介紹詞」--採取了兩面取好的手法--而這樣兩面取好手法,在內文裡也處處可見。

介紹詞嘛!要不然能怎樣寫!?

本文於 2009/09/19 11:14 修改第 1 次
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unlikely leader我斟酌太久了,實際上各方說法我都接受
2009/09/19 10:54 推薦0


Gail
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Alex說:「如此一改,與緊接著unlikely leaders的後文正面語調意義難以連接,這是很不恰當的翻法。」

--unlikely leader我斟酌太久了,實際上各方說法我都接受,unlikely leader這句新造的英文詞彙,我認為是中性,要看寫作者真正的意圖在哪,當然也就不好翻譯。

本文於 2009/09/19 11:13 修改第 1 次
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「有勇氣做出困難與不受歡迎的決定,其實是讚美」
2009/09/19 10:51 推薦1


Gail
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張爺

Alex說:「有勇氣做出困難與不受歡迎的決定,其實是讚美」

--本文,不帶貶字,通篇讚美,這是高級的諷刺法,要以此來說它「通篇是稱讚」當然說得通--語意上啦!

但那又如何呢!?

本文於 2009/09/19 11:13 修改第 1 次
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還有,去年我誤判賴幸媛那事,老早想跟您道歉
2009/09/19 10:31 推薦0


Gail
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還有,去年我誤判賴幸媛那事,老早想跟您道歉。

但之後,你我可能就是敵人了。
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American perspective.
2009/09/19 10:30 推薦1


Lohengrin
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張爺

A Taiwanese friend of mine once said that Taiwanese can be provincial (his exact words were 沒有國際觀) and many universities are spending money trying to give students a more global perspective.  This is reflected here perfectly.

This essay was written by American(s) with an American perspective for Americans, not a Taiwanese perspective.


本文於 2009/09/19 10:33 修改第 1 次
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而至今您「甘之如飴」
2009/09/19 10:25 推薦1

.

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